Florida Father beats accused child abuser.

[MrSpeed]

Entelechy, I kind of agree with most of what you're saying.  Under the circumstances that you're laying out, yeah, maybe it could work.  As for the particular circumstances of the case, I'd like to hear the recording that you're referring to.  As for the dad, yeah, begging for money the day after this happened was truly a dick move.  As for his reaction though, I can hardly blame him for what he did.  I am, by nature, a very calm and cool person but I'm not so sure that I would have reacted any differently.  But I hate when people do the old, "Well, if it had been me I would have..."  The reality is that unless we are placed in the exact same circumstances, we can't honestly say what we would do. 

My original point was that it seems that sometimes those of us with this particular attraction like to pretend that things are better than they really are.  I think some of us want to ignore the realities of what is going on to suppress our true feelings or to make ourselves feel better.  I have used Tara as an example many times.  I have read many comments from people talking about how she's loving it.  Yeah, there are some situations where she does seems to be enjoying things.  However, there are obviously many more where she clearly is not.  How someone can pretend that she is getting off on having a dildo the size of your arm rammed up her ass is beyond me. 

Understand that I'm just more reserved about adult/child relationships in general.  I *do* believe they can exist in a healthy form but the circumstances have to be absolutely perfect.  I am very much in favor of treating children with more respect.  I think we do our kids an injustice by treating them entirely subservient.  Our children deserve much more respect than many of us are willing to give them.  But I have to disagree completely with your Sudbury school model.  Children need adult guidance.  I'm not sure how you set them loose to have complete control of their own lives and learning.  It would be like allowing a kid that just graduated high school to do open heart surgery.  "Here's the keys to the OR, figure it out." 

From a sexual standpoint, you're asking a lot for a child to take in.  (No pun intended)  If the adult genuinely *cares* for the child, then that's one thing.  The problem is, many of us, as is evident from much of the on-topic material we see, basically use children as a masturbation tool.  Well...many of *them* do as I certainly do not include myself in that group. 

It's just a tricky situation. 

[entelechy]

Entelechy, I kind of agree with most of what you're saying.  Under the circumstances that you're laying out, yeah, maybe it could work.  As for the particular circumstances of the case, I'd like to hear the recording that you're referring to.  As for the dad, yeah, begging for money the day after this happened was truly a dick move.  As for his reaction though, I can hardly blame him for what he did.  I am, by nature, a very calm and cool person but I'm not so sure that I would have reacted any differently.  But I hate when people do the old, "Well, if it had been me I would have..."  The reality is that unless we are placed in the exact same circumstances, we can't honestly say what we would do. 

Thanks. It could work, but most people aren't willing to think about it. The clip is available on the clearnet on YouTube. Obviously not TOR safe so I can't link to it here. Do some searching and you'll find it, I found it linked to an article about the case.

Truthfully though, I don't understand why someone would react so angrily to their son receiving oral sex in a gentle manner. Had the boy been being assaulted, I'd be upset too. But walking in and seeing my son with a look of euphoria on his face, I would apologize for interrupting and leave. Later I would let him know that I'm happy for him, and tell him flat out that any sex between him and his older friend can't continue because I could lose custody of him if it does. I'd explain to him that our social environment isn't open-minded about these sort of things, which I'm sure at 11 he would already be well aware of. You're right that nobody truly knows what they'd do when they try to put themselves in other people's shoes, but that seems like the most logical thing in this situation. If it wasn't a negative experience for him, there's no reason to turn it into one. Let alone scare the hell out of him by assaulting the person he had the experience with.

My original point was that it seems that sometimes those of us with this particular attraction like to pretend that things are better than they really are.  I think some of us want to ignore the realities of what is going on to suppress our true feelings or to make ourselves feel better.  I have used Tara as an example many times.  I have read many comments from people talking about how she's loving it.  Yeah, there are some situations where she does seems to be enjoying things.  However, there are obviously many more where she clearly is not.  How someone can pretend that she is getting off on having a dildo the size of your arm rammed up her ass is beyond me.

You made a very valid point, too. Adults project their wishes onto children. This is true and it bothers me, but what bothers me more is that it happens all the time in a non-sexual context and nobody cares. Adults are also prone to do this to other adults. We all vary in physical strength, abilities, experience, needs, social positions, etc., and every one of us is susceptible to subtle manipulation and potential misuses of power inequalities by others.

Understand that I'm just more reserved about adult/child relationships in general.  I *do* believe they can exist in a healthy form but the circumstances have to be absolutely perfect.  I am very much in favor of treating children with more respect.  I think we do our kids an injustice by treating them entirely subservient.  Our children deserve much more respect than many of us are willing to give them.  But I have to disagree completely with your Sudbury school model.  Children need adult guidance.  I'm not sure how you set them loose to have complete control of their own lives and learning.  It would be like allowing a kid that just graduated high school to do open heart surgery.  "Here's the keys to the OR, figure it out." 

I get you completely. You aren't saying anything that I haven't thought about myself. I know that people like us aren't the majority, but that doesn't mean we can't try to empower children and alleviate harm when it does occur.

Take no offense, but you misunderstand the concept of Sudbury schooling. It isn't a careless and insensitive approach toward children. Instead it is letting children set their own pace while responding with supportive guidance to their interests while helping to expand them through advice and activities.

Here is an interesting article about Sudbury/natural free learning that you could take a look at.

http://www.sudval.com/05_underlyingideas.html (TOR safe, but keep scripts off)

This selection from it was of particular interest to me...

Consider the simple fact that at SVS, many students have decided to tackle algebra not because they need to know it, or even find it interesting, but because it is hard for them, it's boring, and they are bad at it. They need to overcome their fear, their feeling of inadequacy, their lack of discipline. Time and again, students who have made this decision achieve their stated goal and take a huge step in building their egos, their confidence, and their character. So why does this not happen when all children are required or encouraged to take algebra in high school? The answer is simple. To overcome a psychological hurdle one has to be ready to make a personal commitment. Such a state of mind is reached only after intense contemplation and self analysis, and cannot be prescribed by others, nor can it be created for a group. In every case it is an individual struggle, and when it succeeds it is an individual triumph. Teachers can only help when asked, and their contribution to the process is slight compared to the work that the student does.

[MrSpeed]

First of all, let me say that I am glad that we are talking this out rather than allowing it to get heated.  I personally appreciate it.  I know that sometimes the written word can be taken differently than what it was intended and I recognize that could have happened with my original comments. 

I know that, even despite my being a pedo, I could never walk in and find my child in that situation and react the way that you suggest.  Some people like to use the term "like-minded" when it comes to pedos but in reality, nothing could be farther from the truth.  Even though we are all attracted to children, we still vary in such dramatic ways.  Personally, I could never have a sexual relationship with my child.  Outside of just being a little playful, I simply don't have that attraction to my own.  Of course there are others that do.  Are you a parent? 

I also know that we as adults can take things too far in respect to sheltering our kids.  As you may know, I'm personally going through a very hard time as I have been accused of doing something to my daughter.  I haven't had contact in months and I'm sure that she is being brainwashed into believing that I'm a bad person.  When it's all said and done, I'm probably going to have to regain her trust for that reason alone. 

Oh, and thanks for the clarification on the Sudbury school model.  I had never heard of it.

[entelechy]

First of all, let me say that I am glad that we are talking this out rather than allowing it to get heated.  I personally appreciate it.  I know that sometimes the written word can be taken differently than what it was intended and I recognize that could have happened with my original comments.

I'm glad, too. Civility is always the best approach and I believe in the golden rule. I may have detected the wrong tone from your original comments, but whatever the case, I'm likewise happy that we're discussing this non-judgmentally.

I know that, even despite my being a pedo, I could never walk in and find my child in that situation and react the way that you suggest.  Some people like to use the term "like-minded" when it comes to pedos but in reality, nothing could be farther from the truth.  Even though we are all attracted to children, we still vary in such dramatic ways.  Personally, I could never have a sexual relationship with my child.  Outside of just being a little playful, I simply don't have that attraction to my own.  Of course there are others that do.  Are you a parent?

I understand that it's easy to assume the worst in a situation like that. But it's important to be calm and assess it to avoid exacerbating harm or creating harm that wasn't there to begin with. Context is the key.

I'm not a parent myself (though I do plan to be one eventually), and parent-child incest makes me uncomfortable. I don't endorse it because it's hard to be a lover/friend one minute and than a guardian the next, it creates a very awkward and confusing situation. It is a situation where the power imbalance could pose a real problem, since children have enforced dependency on their parents and often no legal right to escape. Most physical abuse, emotional abuse/neglect and molestation (actual molestation) takes place in families. On the other hand, I've read testimonies of people who experienced positive sex with a parent and have grown up healthy and unscathed. I don't deny case history showing that it can work, I just don't recommend it and I can point out practical problems with it.

An adult and a child can have genuine companionship where they know each other as growing and changing people, getting and giving what knowledge or pleasure they can but not being wholly dependent on each other and, hence, not wholly vulnerable.

I also know that we as adults can take things too far in respect to sheltering our kids.  As you may know, I'm personally going through a very hard time as I have been accused of doing something to my daughter.  I haven't had contact in months and I'm sure that she is being brainwashed into believing that I'm a bad person.  When it's all said and done, I'm probably going to have to regain her trust for that reason alone.

I wasn't aware of that, and I'm sorry that's happening. What were the circumstances if you don't mind my asking? Don't answer if you're uncomfortable.

Oh, and thanks for the clarification on the Sudbury school model.  I had never heard of it.

You're welcome. It's the model that I plan raising my future children with. Many have not heard of it, but I share it with people I meet all the time.

[on the rocks]

The system is still going to try and say the boy was 'traumatized' by the blowie.
Witnessing horrific violence?  From a family member?  Meh...

[entelechy]

The system is still going to try and say the boy was 'traumatized' by the blowie.
Witnessing horrific violence?  From a family member?  Meh...

We live in one bizarre society.

[MrSpeed]

I also know that we as adults can take things too far in respect to sheltering our kids.  As you may know, I'm personally going through a very hard time as I have been accused of doing something to my daughter.  I haven't had contact in months and I'm sure that she is being brainwashed into believing that I'm a bad person.  When it's all said and done, I'm probably going to have to regain her trust for that reason alone.

I wasn't aware of that, and I'm sorry that's happening. What were the circumstances if you don't mind my asking? Don't answer if you're uncomfortable.

It's basically all in this thread.  I had Gaki edit out the first paragraph that I realized contained a bit too much personal info.  Basically, I'm being investigated for molesting my daughter.  It's ongoing. 

http://onion.tor.my/forum/index.php?topic=5084.0

[AWAWAW]

This was such a sad story, and if it was consensual as entelechy has highlighted then it is even worse.

Having seen a picture of the boy and father, I can see why this played out like it did. The father was only ever going to react in the way he did, but it must have been terribly traumatising for the boy to see what he did.

Am I right in thinking there was a comment from the father in the 911 call along the lines of 'I just found my son being molested, well he WAS my son' or something similar?

The donations page the father set-up were a particularly classy touch. Some men are not fit to be fathers, not at all.

[MrSpeed]

Am I right in thinking there was a comment from the father in the 911 call along the lines of 'I just found my son being molested, well he WAS my son' or something similar?

He said that he knew the boy that did it and that, "...and I loved him up until 15 minutes ago."  Say what you want about the father and what he did but if you listen to the 911 call, you can hear the pain in his voice when he said that.  I honestly believe that he really did love the older boy like a son but when he walked in, well, it probably broke his heart. 

[Luftëtari]

As for his reaction though, I can hardly blame him for what he did.  I am, by nature, a very calm and cool person but I'm not so sure that I would have reacted any differently.

The dad's reaction was purely homophobic. The guy was sucking his penis. He was pounding his ass. If it had been a hot girl, the dad would have cheered. I bet my life on that.

I completely blame him. His reaction was idiotic. If you would have reacted the same. Get help.

[MrSpeed]

As for his reaction though, I can hardly blame him for what he did.  I am, by nature, a very calm and cool person but I'm not so sure that I would have reacted any differently.

The dad's reaction was purely homophobic. The guy was sucking his penis. He was pounding his ass. If it had been a hot girl, the dad would have cheered. I bet my life on that.

I completely blame him. His reaction was idiotic. If you would have reacted the same. Get help.

Holy shit!  Am I the only one seeing this?  His son is ELEVEN!!!  It's not as though he walked in on a 17 year old getting a blow job but his eleven year old child!  Jeezus!  I have issue with this and *I'm* the one that needs to seek help. 

[Luftëtari]

As for his reaction though, I can hardly blame him for what he did.  I am, by nature, a very calm and cool person but I'm not so sure that I would have reacted any differently.

The dad's reaction was purely homophobic. The guy was sucking his penis. He was pounding his ass. If it had been a hot girl, the dad would have cheered. I bet my life on that.

I completely blame him. His reaction was idiotic. If you would have reacted the same. Get help.

Holy shit!  Am I the only one seeing this?  His son is ELEVEN!!!  It's not as though he walked in on a 17 year old getting a blow job but his eleven year old child!  Jeezus!  I have issue with this and *I'm* the one that needs to seek help.

You do.... you do realize the site you are on right? I feel like I am receiving a response on a regular news site right now.

Yes, you and most of society need help if your first reaction to seeing a non-violent sexual interaction involving a child is to get mad at the person who is "older". Your reaction should be to see your son's reaction and ask how he feels about the whole thing. Then go from there.

[MrSpeed]

You do.... you do realize the site you are on right? I feel like I am receiving a response on a regular news site right now.

Yes, you and most of society need help if your first reaction to seeing a non-violent sexual interaction involving a child is to get mad at the person who is "older". Your reaction should be to see your son's reaction and ask how he feels about the whole thing. Then go from there.

Yes, I realize where I am.  I also realize that I'm a father and I care more about my children than many of you care about your own.  Maybe I don't beat the 18 year old within an inch of his life...but I sure don't ask my son if he's enjoying it and just let it go.  I created a poll on this subject in Pedo Chat.  I'm curious if I'm standing out on an island by myself or if others agree with me.

[Gaki]

As a parent, what would I do?  I am not sure...  but I would feel as though I was a failure...  a failure for not being close enough to my son to know that he may be involved with someone... to feel close enough that he would want to share - not everything, but something about his journey into sexuality (no, you pervs , not to be involved as a voyuer but as a guide, a parent).

I would certainly know that I would immediately get the 17 year old out of the house... and it would take a lot to build the trust again - espeically if as many are saying the 911 logs state that he was thought of as a son.  I would be worried about my son being potentially being taken advantage of.   Parental protection would certainly take effect. 

However, I also remember how sexual life was as an 11 year old.  It would definitely continue with many talks with my son...  first of which would be one to let him know that he could rely on me to be able to talk. 

I can see where you are coming from MrSpeed.  11 is one of those ages where they are on the cusp of childhood and adolescence.  Would it be different if it was a 13 year old giving the 11 year old oral sex?  Different if it was a 9 year old giving the 11 year old oral sex?

The 17 year old would have a lot to answer for... a lot to explain... a lot to talk about in my book because just like I consider the adult the more responsible party in an Adult-Child interaction, as a 17 year old, they better understand their responsibility in this!



No one can understand or know exactly how they would react until they find themselves in this situation.  Luftëtari, you do not know if he would cheer if his son was with a girl or a woman.  It is an assumption based on how many cultures cheer male conquests of females.  Also, telling anyone to 'get help' if they would react like this is not helpful nor something that I think you can say that everyone will calmly assess the situation as though it was two people playing cards or a board game.  Most parents walking in on any of their children will more than likely immediately stop the interaction and separate the participants.  There is not going to be a precedent for them to be able to remain calm enough to assess their child's reaction, pleasure etc...  So, although this would be good, I can almost guarantee this will not be determined until talking after they are separated.  This is the only time you will be able to determine how the son actually felt - not by sight.

And, MrSpeed, your generalization that you care for your children more than other parents here care for theirs is also not helpful.  I am in no doubt about your devotion and love for your children, but you cannot determine how others here feel about their children.  Your points are valid about the fact that a parent (and more to the point, you) would not be able to just be blase about walking in on that... but it is unfair to the parents of our community to judge them all in such a sweeping statement.

I appreciate the debate this topic has opened... however, let us try to keep from generalizing.  We can tell what we would do, but please, let us all be respectful to the feelings and what they may do to those that respond.  Ask questions, tell what you would do instead... but let us not say people need help or people must not love their children as much as another...

Enough of the soap-box...
o.0

[Luftëtari]

You do.... you do realize the site you are on right? I feel like I am receiving a response on a regular news site right now.

Yes, you and most of society need help if your first reaction to seeing a non-violent sexual interaction involving a child is to get mad at the person who is "older". Your reaction should be to see your son's reaction and ask how he feels about the whole thing. Then go from there.

Yes, I realize where I am.  I also realize that I'm a father and I care more about my children than many of you care about your own.  Maybe I don't beat the 18 year old within an inch of his life...but I sure don't ask my son if he's enjoying it and just let it go.  I created a poll on this subject in Pedo Chat.  I'm curious if I'm standing out on an island by myself or if others agree with me.

No, you seem to care more about your moral views than your children's views. Just like the father in the news story, who was only stopped from killing the guy because his son was crying and begging him to stop. Father of the year material right there :/